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  #2081  
Old 01-24-2017, 09:26 PM
Swallowtail Swallowtail is offline
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First of all, it's not like I'm debating over this because I want to be nitpicky or a grammar freak. I think it's important.��

Right: Homosexuality/gayness has always had the denotation of being a sexual orientation. I know Rebecca says that it has broadened its definition and maybe it has, but the reason gay people are oppressed is because people think they are sexually broken.

Romantic interests do not enter the equation.

Why do I think this? Let's say you're a gay guy, 1950s. You have a wife. You've always dated women. Dating a man would be scoffable, and anyways, you wouldn't want to. Now, let's say someone finds out about your sexual orientation and you are sent to an insane asylum. In this circumstance, it was not your romantic interests that ratted you out; it was your sexuality.

Another scenario: You're a homoromantic asexual, 1950s. You date members of the same sex and you're sent to an insane asylum because of this. Yes, you were targeted for your romantic interests, but you were discriminated under the assumption that you were a homosexual.

In the first scenario, you were targeted because you were a homosexual, whereas in the second scenario, you were targeted because they had reason to believe you were a homosexual. You are not discriminated for your romantic interests; you are discriminated because those romantic interests imply that there's something wrong with your sexuality.

This debunks the idea that "homosexuality and homoromantiscism are the same thing because after all, they're both targeted for the same reasons!" They're not targeted for the same reasons; homosexuals get targeted for being homosexuals. Homoromantics are targeted because people think they are homosexuals.

Next, romantic attractions are often times fluid. It's possible they can be molded by personal experiences--maybe you grew up liking girls, but after a traumatic event, you became aromantic. Maybe you're bisexual, always dated guys, but as you grew older your preferences changed and you found yourself more attracted to girls.

That's completely different from sexuality. Sexuality is rock-solid, unalterable. No event will ever change it; it is a part of you until the day you die.

In that respect, homosexuality and homoromantism are very different and by saying both of them are technically gay is to equate two different experiences.

So if you say homoromantic = gay, you're essentially saying "homoromantics face the same exact things homosexuals face and they're equally discriminated for the same exact reasons". This is harmful, because how are we supposed to solve two completely different problems when we can't even DIFFERENTIATE between the two?

And I know Meera and co think this is "sexualizing homosexuality" but that's kinda the point. Gays get discriminated because of their sexuality, not their romantic attraction. And you can't possibly solve homophobia if you don't recognize that.

debate away
hey sorry but sexuality isn't rock solid either??? tbh I'm not in a great mental state currently so I apologize if anything I've said is rude but?? people can get shit for kissing someone of the same gender regardless of whether or not the person giving them shit thinks they've been having sex with that person or not?? and the same as romantic attraction sexual attraction can change and for a lot of people it does??? And yeah being homoromantic and ace is different from being homoromantic/sexual but I mean I still get shit for it and I also get shit from both sides of it? I'm not straight enough to be straight and I'm not gay enough to be gay and I'm tired of having to exist in this weird sort of limbo where people debate my existence and whether or not my experiences are valid or not.

I also really don't know how to feel about your comment on you being the gay person here because??? can I now not identify as that because it's hurtful or??? do I just give up at this point and accept that I'm never gojng to belong anywhere???
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  #2082  
Old 01-24-2017, 09:38 PM
meerkat meerkat is offline
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this debate as a whole is SUPER eurocentric tbh
like i've never seen anyone else address the points that i (and the other nonwhite people) have brought up about how sexuality is viewed differently in other cultures??
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  #2083  
Old 01-24-2017, 09:42 PM
Jesse Jesse is offline
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Originally Posted by Swallowtail View Post
hey sorry but sexuality isn't rock solid either??? tbh I'm not in a great mental state currently so I apologize if anything I've said is rude but?? people can get shit for kissing someone of the same gender regardless of whether or not the person giving them shit thinks they've been having sex with that person or not?? and the same as romantic attraction sexual attraction can change and for a lot of people it does??? And yeah being homoromantic and ace is different from being homoromantic/sexual but I mean I still get shit for it and I also get shit from both sides of it? I'm not straight enough to be straight and I'm not gay enough to be gay and I'm tired of having to exist in this weird sort of limbo where people debate my existence and whether or not my experiences are valid or not.

I also really don't know how to feel about your comment on you being the gay person here because??? can I now not identify as that because it's hurtful or??? do I just give up at this point and accept that I'm never gojng to belong anywhere???
But aren't you, technically, in-between/in limbo? Sexuality isn't binary, you don't have be gay or straight. simple solution would be identifying as "homoromantic asexual" instead of "gay person" but tbh do whatever you want

And sorry to act like a douche and I totally wouldn't even be bringing this up if it wasn't for the fact we were having this debate I swear

--
And for the record, sexuality is rock-solid, in that conversion therapy doesn't work/scientists are pretty much in agreement that self-perception changes over time, not sexuality.
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  #2084  
Old 01-24-2017, 09:51 PM
Swallowtail Swallowtail is offline
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Originally Posted by Jesse View Post
But aren't you, technically, in-between/in limbo? Sexuality isn't binary, you don't have be gay or straight. simple solution would be identifying as "homoromantic asexual" instead of "gay person" but tbh do whatever you want

And sorry to act like a douche and I totally wouldn't even be bringing this up if it wasn't for the fact we were having this debate I swear

--
And for the record, sexuality is rock-solid, in that conversion therapy doesn't work/scientists are pretty much in agreement that self-perception changes over time, not sexuality.
I mean I guess I would but then there's a lot of questions on what that means so I guess I just say that I'm gay but sex repulsed? And more of the problem is that I'm often not considered to be part of the LGBT community if I say I'm ace. And yeah sexuality isn't binary but that's also like saying that bi people aren't a part of the community because they aren't gay.
And also I know you're not a douche so please don't think I'm upset at you
Also I've known people who were at first sexually attracted to boys and later became exclusively attracted to girls so do they not exist? I mean obviously conversion therapy doesn't work because you can't force someone to change their orientation but sometimes that does change
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  #2085  
Old 01-24-2017, 09:53 PM
Swallowtail Swallowtail is offline
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Originally Posted by meerkat View Post
this debate as a whole is SUPER eurocentric tbh
like i've never seen anyone else address the points that i (and the other nonwhite people) have brought up about how sexuality is viewed differently in other cultures??
Hey I'm really sorry for not discussing this more? I just don't know much about other cultures' views on this sort of thing since I come from a pretty white family.
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  #2086  
Old 01-24-2017, 09:58 PM
meerkat meerkat is offline
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Hey I'm really sorry for not discussing this more? I just don't know much about other cultures' views on this sort of thing since I come from a pretty white family.
no problem!! it's our job to educate you tbh.
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  #2087  
Old 01-25-2017, 12:30 AM
pluzzle pluzzle is offline
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Originally Posted by meerkat View Post
this debate as a whole is SUPER eurocentric tbh
like i've never seen anyone else address the points that i (and the other nonwhite people) have brought up about how sexuality is viewed differently in other cultures??
I can't speak for this as I come from NZ/UK/AUS and am super white, but I'd be really interested in hearing your take on it from your culture's perspective.
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  #2088  
Old 01-25-2017, 12:53 AM
meerkat meerkat is offline
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I can't speak for this as I come from NZ/UK/AUS and am super white, but I'd be really interested in hearing your take on it from your culture's perspective.
there was a very long reply a few pages back, i'll try and dig it up
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  #2089  
Old 01-25-2017, 12:54 AM
meerkat meerkat is offline
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i get that sexual feelings are seen as positive in european societies, but i'm south asian. i've been raised thinking that ALL sexual feelings are bad, and that asexuality is a good thing. so you can imagine how jarring it was for me to discover that apparently asexuals are oppressed everywhere. tbh when i identified as ace, nothing made me feel more broken than the community itself telling me that the world hated people like me.
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  #2090  
Old 01-25-2017, 01:03 AM
Lily09 Lily09 is offline
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and its not just sexual too. its a bit more acceptable these days but you cant even really kiss in public in thailand.
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