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  #21  
Old 06-26-2013, 12:24 PM
Lily09 Lily09 is offline
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Originally Posted by soph-soph27 View Post
Hold on, just trying to clear up here- has anyone ever heard someone else saying that feminism corresponds to abortion, because with feminism, a woman is automatically pro-choice to abortion, whereas if she is not, she has no rights to have an abortion if she decided to have intercourse without being on a pill or with a condom?
Isn't that the same kind of thing as saying "don't have sex if you don't want a kid", well maybe the woman doesn't have the choice, but with feminism, it only reinforces the individuality of a woman, telling us that we can do what we like with our bodies. Feminism doesn't immediately grant rights to a woman to push men out of the way, which is sort of what you might be able to connect to the Jews and the Nazis- the Nazis killed the Jews because all of the were anti-semitists.
Is a man permitted to get a woman pregnant if she says they can have sex without a condom? That's what brings us back to pro-choice about abortion. If a woman is a feminist, does that automatically make her pro-choice abortion?

I'm a proud feminist.
wait back up hold on im a bit confused can you explain that a bit clearer maybe its just that i've been awake since 6:30 am

Last edited by Lily09; 06-26-2013 at 12:27 PM.
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  #22  
Old 06-26-2013, 01:19 PM
soph-soph27 soph-soph27 is offline
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wait back up hold on im a bit confused can you explain that a bit clearer maybe its just that i've been awake since 6:30 am
Just because a woman is a feminst does not mean that she has to reject attempted "chivalry" and be pro-choice abortion. Being a feminist means that we can have a little more individuality, and feel comfortable and happy with who we are. Some people are pro-abortion because of teen moms, some aren't. Feminism doesn't mean you must be pro-choice abortion, it just means you have independence and excersise your own control over your body.
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  #23  
Old 06-26-2013, 01:28 PM
AlgebraAddict AlgebraAddict is offline
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The argument isn't that it will mess up the economy, I was saying that it would cause health care clinics to shut down, from what I heard. Which would affect people who need medical treatment

where'd you get the statistic for it being a choice 99% of the time? that doesn't sound right to me but idk…
what if the birth control fails? or if the boyfriend later abandons her?
i don't think that metaphor is very good :P

sorry if i'm not doing well at debating i'm having multiple fast-paced conversations at once and also attempting to keep up with the news and it's been a long day i probs shouldn't be debating at all sorry if i sound dumb
No, it's okay.

Alright, but the same thing happened in the south and it affected people who needed food.

http://www.nytimes.com/1989/10/13/us...abortions.html

If that happens, it's different, but usually it doesn't happen. That's a more serious debate, but the fact is a huge majority of abortions happen because a child is inconvenient or unwanted and both people were fully aware of the possibility of pregnancy and I feel like that's a really unacceptable reason to have an abortion.


Oh, and Sophie- I totally agree.
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  #24  
Old 06-26-2013, 01:44 PM
L.S.Trendom L.S.Trendom is offline
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No, it's okay.

Alright, but the same thing happened in the south and it affected people who needed food.

http://www.nytimes.com/1989/10/13/us...abortions.html

If that happens, it's different, but usually it doesn't happen. That's a more serious debate, but the fact is a huge majority of abortions happen because a child is inconvenient or unwanted and both people were fully aware of the possibility of pregnancy and I feel like that's a really unacceptable reason to have an abortion.


Oh, and Sophie- I totally agree.
Hmm, okay. I know this doesn't affect it much, but a /lot/ of the time, rapes aren't reported.
Like, I said, not an expert :P I don't think people should be careless with sex—if someone doesn't want to have a child, they should avoid getting pregnant—but I don't think women should be forced to carry the consequences of that for possibly the rest of their life.
i'm not completely sure where i stand, though, idk
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  #25  
Old 06-26-2013, 01:46 PM
L.S.Trendom L.S.Trendom is offline
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Also, there's the argument that banning abortions will not stop abortions, it would lead to illegal, riskier abortions.
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  #26  
Old 06-26-2013, 02:08 PM
AlgebraAddict AlgebraAddict is offline
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Hmm, okay. I know this doesn't affect it much, but a /lot/ of the time, rapes aren't reported.
Like, I said, not an expert :P I don't think people should be careless with sex—if someone doesn't want to have a child, they should avoid getting pregnant—but I don't think women should be forced to carry the consequences of that for possibly the rest of their life.
i'm not completely sure where i stand, though, idk
and on the other hand, there are a lot of women who say they got raped when they didn't. It's a weird balance. And of course if you get pregnant, there are sometimes family members who would take him or her or friends or just the adoption program. But yeah, it's true that pregnancy can really mess stuff up.

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Also, there's the argument that banning abortions will not stop abortions, it would lead to illegal, riskier abortions.

True, but if the government spent all the money they use giving out abortions now on health care programs designed to help pregnant women and adoption programs, it might be better.
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  #27  
Old 06-26-2013, 02:11 PM
TheMoonWakedWolf TheMoonWakedWolf is offline
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Women can want abortion for several different reasons. Sometimes, it's because they were raped, sometimes it's because they're not financially prepared to have a child, sometimes it's because they don't feel emotionally prepared--the list goes on. The reason why this topic is so difficult to debate is because of these various reasons. My mom, being a Catholic and having given birth to three children, is pro-life for one simple reason: she believes it constitutes as murder. So really, I believe a major setback in this argument is the fact that many pro-life supporters are debating on a different standard than the pro-choice. Most pro-choice do it because they believe it is a woman's right and by banning abortion, we are stripping those rights, and most pro-life do it because they believe it is simply the killing of a human life, and by allowing abortion, we are encouraging that practice. I can't pretend to understand where my mother comes from on this topic--I have never been pregnant and don't know if I could call it murder--but I just wanted to state that there's a reason a lot of these pro-life people are fighting against abortion. It is against their beliefs. (And if anyone brings up gay marriage being against beliefs, I will sock you in the face because that is not at all related and on a completely different level than what a lot Christians call murder.)

Still, the fact that Wendy had to stand for thirteen hours without food, water, a bathroom break, or even a back brace just to get her point across is terrible. You've never heard anything like this before because, most likely, it's never happened to a man. Truth be told, America's government is pretty sexist. The majority of government officials are men. Some may argue that it's just because women "don't take too much interest in government", but look at the wonderful ladies at this filibuster that had such strong, educated opinions on the government that probably won't ever be held up to the same status as male politicians because the male's vote is the majority and males are seen by so many as superior! The true issue with women's rights in this situation isn't focused on the topic of abortion, but on the voices speaking about it, and how unjust it truly is for women in the world of politics, and the world in general.
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  #28  
Old 06-26-2013, 02:16 PM
L.S.Trendom L.S.Trendom is offline
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Originally Posted by AlgebraAddict View Post
and on the other hand, there are a lot of women who say they got raped when they didn't. It's a weird balance. And of course if you get pregnant, there are sometimes family members who would take him or her or friends or just the adoption program. But yeah, it's true that pregnancy can really mess stuff up.


True, but if the government spent all the money they use giving out abortions now on health care programs designed to help pregnant women and adoption programs, it might be better.
No, 'a lot' is an exaggeration: "There were 5,651 prosecutions for rape for the period between January 2011 and May 2012 the study looked at, but only 35 for making false allegations of rape." (from this article. there's also this, about the same study.) And far far more common is rape survivor being accused of making false allegations. And, again, 54% of rapes/sexual assaults are not reported.

idk about how much money is spent on what, but yeah, money def needs to be focussed on that too.
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  #29  
Old 06-26-2013, 02:24 PM
AlgebraAddict AlgebraAddict is offline
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Originally Posted by TheMoonWakedWolf View Post
Women can want abortion for several different reasons. Sometimes, it's because they were raped, sometimes it's because they're not financially prepared to have a child, sometimes it's because they don't feel emotionally prepared--the list goes on. The reason why this topic is so difficult to debate is because of these various reasons. My mom, being a Catholic and having given birth to three children, is pro-life for one simple reason: she believes it constitutes as murder. So really, I believe a major setback in this argument is the fact that many pro-life supporters are debating on a different standard than the pro-choice. Most pro-choice do it because they believe it is a woman's right and by banning abortion, we are stripping those rights, and most pro-life do it because they believe it is simply the killing of a human life, and by allowing abortion, we are encouraging that practice. I can't pretend to understand where my mother comes from on this topic--I have never been pregnant and don't know if I could call it murder--but I just wanted to state that there's a reason a lot of these pro-life people are fighting against abortion. It is against their beliefs. (And if anyone brings up gay marriage being against beliefs, I will sock you in the face because that is not at all related and on a completely different level than what a lot Christians call murder.)

Still, the fact that Wendy had to stand for thirteen hours without food, water, a bathroom break, or even a back brace just to get her point across is terrible. You've never heard anything like this before because, most likely, it's never happened to a man. Truth be told, America's government is pretty sexist. The majority of government officials are men. Some may argue that it's just because women "don't take too much interest in government", but look at the wonderful ladies at this filibuster that had such strong, educated opinions on the government that probably won't ever be held up to the same status as male politicians because the male's vote is the majority and males are seen by so many as superior! The true issue with women's rights in this situation isn't focused on the topic of abortion, but on the voices speaking about it, and how unjust it truly is for women in the world of politics, and the world in general.
That's very true. If I didn't believe that an unborn child is a human, I probably wouldn't believe any of this other stuff.

Seriously. O_O

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Originally Posted by L.S.Trendom View Post
No, 'a lot' is an exaggeration: "There were 5,651 prosecutions for rape for the period between January 2011 and May 2012 the study looked at, but only 35 for making false allegations of rape." (from this article. there's also this, about the same study.) And far far more common is rape survivor being accused of making false allegations. And, again, 54% of rapes/sexual assaults are not reported.

idk about how much money is spent on what, but yeah, money def needs to be focussed on that too.
prosecutions. People don't go and prosecute every one of these people. But I don't know everything and I've seen a lot of different numbers, so idk. And 54% of rapes doesn't mean 54% of pregnancies by rape.


Yeah. The government generally has very small sense of priority.
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  #30  
Old 06-26-2013, 02:29 PM
L.S.Trendom L.S.Trendom is offline
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That's very true. If I didn't believe that an unborn child is a human, I probably wouldn't believe any of this other stuff.

Seriously. O_O



prosecutions. People don't go and prosecute every one of these people. But I don't know everything and I've seen a lot of different numbers, so idk. And 54% of rapes doesn't mean 54% of pregnancies by rape.


Yeah. The government generally has very small sense of priority.
Yes the whole filibuster thing was completely ugh. they also illegally voted after the filibuster ended.

Every one of what people? People who make false rape allegations, or rapists? but the point still stands, there are far more true rape accusations than there are false rape accusations.
Yes, I'm aware of that.
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