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  #981  
Old 10-20-2016, 07:44 AM
Jesse Jesse is offline
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Ok can everyone agree that Hillary won the debate ten times over

and OH MY GOD did anyone see the face she made when Trump was arguing over whether Aleppo "had fallen"
and hfrjjsjdjdj he was humiliated I was trying not to laugh
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  #982  
Old 10-20-2016, 08:19 AM
Jesse Jesse is offline
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Originally Posted by Gracithe1andonly View Post
So, assuming that life begins at conception, then yes, plan b is as bad as abortion because it's still taking a human life.

The entire Catholic stance on sex is that sex is a beautiful thing. There are two points of sex- a) to be close and intimate like you can't be otherwise b) to co-create more humans, and these two goals can't be separated. This is one of the reasons we tend/are supposed to wait until marriage to have sex- we want to have kids in a situation where they'll have a mom and a dad and a stable family to grow up in.

That's why contraceptives aren't good- humans want to have the feel-good part of sex without the children part. It's sort of like trying to do what we want without being accountable, and... that's not good?

I've also heard that most contraceptives are really bad for you and can wreck your body more than bearing a child would...

WHAT THE HECK TRUMP

I live in a place where there are loads of Hispanic people and I'm offended on behalf of my friends D:
No offense but I think I remember a separation of church and state, so whatever points you're trying to make about Christianity have nothing to do with whether Roe v Wade should be overturned...

No one should be forced to bear a child. I'm sorry, but that's barbaric, and that's what a vote for a republican will give you.

More and more women would rather perform abortions on themselves with kitchen objects than go to an abortion clinic. In the south, many states don't even HAVE abortion clinics, as nearly all of them have been closed down due to government loopholes. What you think is widespread has already been squandrered across the country.

There is one abortion clinic in Mississippi. One.
If you live in the south, and you're raped, or your life is at risk by giving birth, you can't even get an abortion if you wanted to.

There's something wrong when a 13-year-old girl would be forced to give birth to the offspring of her rapist, because "life begins at conception".

You can make all the arguments you like trying to humanize sperms and eggs and rocks and pinecones, but if you believe in God, you should understand why we need abortion.

Why has it come to the point where an embryo has more rights that a human woman? It doesn't care if it dies.

No person has more of an emotional connection with the fetus than the mother, not the government and not you. It's her choice. It always should be.
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  #983  
Old 10-20-2016, 12:23 PM
venika venika is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gracithe1andonly View Post
Hello, there. I want to ask a question. I'm not sure where to put it, so I'll put it here. It's abortion-related, so if you're pro-choice and not ready to be challenged right now, please do your best to ignore this post. I don't like fights, but I know that this might get people angry at each other and me, and I'm prepared to accept that consequence.

I haven't been secretive about my religious affiliations (my signature screams 'Christian' all over it) but in case you don't know, I'm Catholic, and therefore I believe that human life begins at conception.

Nevertheless, two things happened to me that made me think- first, I saw a post on tumblr from a social worker who had seen the sorts of situations where abortions are nearly unavoidable-domestic violence and poverty. It gave idealistic, innocent me a dose of reality, so even though I believe abortion is wrong, I want better for those who end up pregnant in those terrible situations.

The other thing that happened was that a person said, "abortion is just cells." Now, you already know that I believe life begins at conception, but there isn't a way to prove that (right now, anyway.) It cannot be denied, however, that those cells become a human eventually if left alone.

Here's the question: how is eliminating something that will become human more morally acceptable than outright killing a human?
disclaimer: i'm very pro-choice and atheist, but i definitely understand where you're coming from, so i'll try my best to articulate my opinion!

first off, something you said about contraception being bad-- i'd just like to point out that it's not just used to prevent pregnancies. for example, condoms protect against std transmission, and birth control pills are often used to treat hormonal conditions that have nothing to do with pregnancy. so @what you said about contraceptives being really bad for you-- they're actually the opposite. basically what birth control does is it has a synthetic version of the hormones your body produces naturally (i could go into this actually-- we did it in biology last year, it's pretty interesting tbh). so it's not doing anything unnatural to your body and actually helps with a lot of conditions (for example, excessively heavy periods, PCOS, endometriosis, acne).

also, i think, to answer your question-- how is eliminating something that will become human more morally acceptable than outright killing a human?-- the fact is having an abortion can be extremely emotionally painful for the mother, and if someone chooses to go through all that-- the stigma, having to find a clinic that will perform it, the emotional pain-- they will have a reason for doing it. a 14 year old girl will never be able to give a child the life they deserve. someone whose living situation is bad at best can't provide for their child. someone who's unemployed, without a place to stay, etc-- if you've grown up in a really tough situation or know someone who has, you'll know that that'll impact a child for the rest of their life, and sometimes things are so bad at that point in time that a mother literally wouldn't be able to support a child. (and even if this child was adopted/placed in foster care/etc, the families they're placed into could be abusive.. and thousands of kids never get adopted in the first place).

and yes, that bunch of cells never got the chance to grow and be born. but if it's aborted for the mother's health, i don't see any ethical questions about it, to be honest. it's why i'm pro-choice-- if a mother who finds out that carrying the baby to term could cause harm to herself/the child/both, that's her choice. but a 14, 15, 16, 17 year old who doesn't have the option to get an abortion is basically being prescribed a death sentence (as is their child).

i definitely agree that life is important, and as far as it can be safely protected, it should be. but i'm also of the opinion that it's every woman's choice when it comes to something that will impact her life forever.

also, something you said about wanting planned parenthood to be 'taken down'-- http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpo...vernment-money this site says that abortions only account for 3% of their services. mostly, it does std/sti testing and provides contraception-- so even if you would never get an abortion, the fact remains that it helps thousands of people with things completely unrelated to abortion. like i said before, contraception is also a way to help with conditions that cause extreme pain, discomfort, and other health-related consequences.

so yeah! i hope that wasn't rude in any way rip
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  #984  
Old 10-20-2016, 03:45 PM
waverunner waverunner is offline
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Default Ugh Why Are The Two People Running For President So Bad!

UGHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! * rips paper* Ok, I feel better now.
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  #985  
Old 10-20-2016, 04:32 PM
Gracithe1andonly Gracithe1andonly is offline
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Originally Posted by Jesse View Post
No offense but I think I remember a separation of church and state, so whatever points you're trying to make about Christianity have nothing to do with whether Roe v Wade should be overturned...

No one should be forced to bear a child. I'm sorry, but that's barbaric, and that's what a vote for a republican will give you.

More and more women would rather perform abortions on themselves with kitchen objects than go to an abortion clinic. In the south, many states don't even HAVE abortion clinics, as nearly all of them have been closed down due to government loopholes. What you think is widespread has already been squandrered across the country.

There is one abortion clinic in Mississippi. One.
If you live in the south, and you're raped, or your life is at risk by giving birth, you can't even get an abortion if you wanted to.

There's something wrong when a 13-year-old girl would be forced to give birth to the offspring of her rapist, because "life begins at conception".

You can make all the arguments you like trying to humanize sperms and eggs and rocks and pinecones, but if you believe in God, you should understand why we need abortion.

Why has it come to the point where an embryo has more rights that a human woman? It doesn't care if it dies.

No person has more of an emotional connection with the fetus than the mother, not the government and not you. It's her choice. It always should be.
I'm biased, perhaps a little more than you are, and I'm steeped in theology, so I keep talking Christian lingo. I'm sorry for not using normal language to try to get my points across!

Thing is, I can't prove that life begins at conception, but whatever the heck an embryo is, it will become a human being if allowed to be born. Does that give it rights? I say yes...

Our whole problem here is that we have to balance the very very real and important rights of the woman with the rights of the human that might come from her.

There's something VERY VERY wrong when a human girl is raped. She should not be forced to have sex, and it isn't good that she might have a child when completely unprepared for it and unready. But the offspring is also hers, and when it is okay to kill something because of who its parents are?

It's true that adoption is not a method that works all the time, or often. It's also true that many of these children will not have the life they deserve. But we don't go around mercy-killing poor people because they don't have the life they deserve. We try to help them.

Most of us humans don't have a life with all the resources we need, and all of us are hurt in some way. None of us have lived a perfect life with a perfect family. I don't think that means we need to die.

I hate that I might be saying "let them suffer but let them live." That sounds heartless to me, but no matter who we are and how we are born, we suffer. That's undeniable. What I'm wishing on the child and the mother is not suffering, but the opportunity to grow past and heal from it.

About the embryo not caring if it dies, a former Planned Parenthood employee told me that she was doing an abortion with x-ray (for the first time.) When the abortion instrument entered the mother's womb, the fetus leapt away from it.

The mother should always have a choice whether or not to bear her child, but here's this situation that might happen that's been bouncing around my head. I'm not trying to preach (anymore lol), I'm just genuinely curious.

So what if there are two very young people who are in love and have sex? The girl gets pregnant, and she's going to abort because she's not ready for a child. The father, however, wants the baby to be born. Is it still the woman's choice?
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  #986  
Old 10-20-2016, 04:45 PM
Gracithe1andonly Gracithe1andonly is offline
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Originally Posted by venika View Post
disclaimer: i'm very pro-choice and atheist, but i definitely understand where you're coming from, so i'll try my best to articulate my opinion!

first off, something you said about contraception being bad-- i'd just like to point out that it's not just used to prevent pregnancies. for example, condoms protect against std transmission, and birth control pills are often used to treat hormonal conditions that have nothing to do with pregnancy. so @what you said about contraceptives being really bad for you-- they're actually the opposite. basically what birth control does is it has a synthetic version of the hormones your body produces naturally (i could go into this actually-- we did it in biology last year, it's pretty interesting tbh). so it's not doing anything unnatural to your body and actually helps with a lot of conditions (for example, excessively heavy periods, PCOS, endometriosis, acne).

also, i think, to answer your question-- how is eliminating something that will become human more morally acceptable than outright killing a human?-- the fact is having an abortion can be extremely emotionally painful for the mother, and if someone chooses to go through all that-- the stigma, having to find a clinic that will perform it, the emotional pain-- they will have a reason for doing it. a 14 year old girl will never be able to give a child the life they deserve. someone whose living situation is bad at best can't provide for their child. someone who's unemployed, without a place to stay, etc-- if you've grown up in a really tough situation or know someone who has, you'll know that that'll impact a child for the rest of their life, and sometimes things are so bad at that point in time that a mother literally wouldn't be able to support a child. (and even if this child was adopted/placed in foster care/etc, the families they're placed into could be abusive.. and thousands of kids never get adopted in the first place).

and yes, that bunch of cells never got the chance to grow and be born. but if it's aborted for the mother's health, i don't see any ethical questions about it, to be honest. it's why i'm pro-choice-- if a mother who finds out that carrying the baby to term could cause harm to herself/the child/both, that's her choice. but a 14, 15, 16, 17 year old who doesn't have the option to get an abortion is basically being prescribed a death sentence (as is their child).

i definitely agree that life is important, and as far as it can be safely protected, it should be. but i'm also of the opinion that it's every woman's choice when it comes to something that will impact her life forever.

also, something you said about wanting planned parenthood to be 'taken down'-- http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpo...vernment-money this site says that abortions only account for 3% of their services. mostly, it does std/sti testing and provides contraception-- so even if you would never get an abortion, the fact remains that it helps thousands of people with things completely unrelated to abortion. like i said before, contraception is also a way to help with conditions that cause extreme pain, discomfort, and other health-related consequences.

so yeah! i hope that wasn't rude in any way rip
Okay so before I reply I just want to compliment everyone who's gotten in on this discussion for being so polite and mature and not just trying to bash each other. We seem to really be trying to state our differences and seeing where we concur and that is really cool, high five to everyone!

I think the problem about our very different views on contraceptives is that both our sources are somewhat biased, and I'm just wondering where the lie is tbh. I am of course inclined to believing that my source is true, but I have a little bit of evidence for this.

-my source worked at Planned Parenthood for eight years
-my source, if she lied, lied to a room full of teenagers searching for truth earnestly and happily. If there's a worse crime than that short of murder and rape, please tell me what it is.

According to my source, the whole 3% thing is not true, and Planned Parenthood are really in it for the money, and the abortions there are hardly safer than back-street abortions. They didn't even use an x-ray there for a long time, for heaven's sake, they just got the instruments into the woman and poked around until the fetus was decimated. That really doesn't sound safe to me.

Trying to give herself and her baby a good life is probably one of the main reasons for abortion (and a good one imo), but so few of us humans actually have a life with all the physical resources we need, and absolutely none of us are emotionally and psychologically intact. No matter who a baby is born to and where or in what circumstance, he or she is going to suffer.

That's not good and we should be trying to solve that (and we are, in so many different ways, some of which work and some of which don't) but even though abortion spares a child the grief of living and the mother the grief of trying to decide what to do with her child, it steals from the child the joy and possibilities of living and it steals from the mother the joy that the child could have been. It also steals from the world someone who could have risen through the ranks and done something wonderful.

When the woman's life is in danger from the pregnancy, then as far as I can tell, we do as much as we can to save both lives, but not one at the cost of the other.

I really think there should be more resources for pregnant women and women with young children, I think that would help a lot if someplace for people in that situation to find help got as big and well-known as Planned Parenthood.

(that was not rude in any way, Finny (you're still Finny, right?) this is wonderful and, uncomfortable though it can be, i'm really enjoying this discussion instead of regretting making it for once rip ^_^)
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Last edited by Gracithe1andonly; 10-20-2016 at 04:48 PM.
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  #987  
Old 10-20-2016, 05:30 PM
venika venika is offline
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Originally Posted by Gracithe1andonly View Post
Okay so before I reply I just want to compliment everyone who's gotten in on this discussion for being so polite and mature and not just trying to bash each other. We seem to really be trying to state our differences and seeing where we concur and that is really cool, high five to everyone!

I think the problem about our very different views on contraceptives is that both our sources are somewhat biased, and I'm just wondering where the lie is tbh. I am of course inclined to believing that my source is true, but I have a little bit of evidence for this.

-my source worked at Planned Parenthood for eight years
-my source, if she lied, lied to a room full of teenagers searching for truth earnestly and happily. If there's a worse crime than that short of murder and rape, please tell me what it is.

According to my source, the whole 3% thing is not true, and Planned Parenthood are really in it for the money, and the abortions there are hardly safer than back-street abortions. They didn't even use an x-ray there for a long time, for heaven's sake, they just got the instruments into the woman and poked around until the fetus was decimated. That really doesn't sound safe to me.

Trying to give herself and her baby a good life is probably one of the main reasons for abortion (and a good one imo), but so few of us humans actually have a life with all the physical resources we need, and absolutely none of us are emotionally and psychologically intact. No matter who a baby is born to and where or in what circumstance, he or she is going to suffer.

That's not good and we should be trying to solve that (and we are, in so many different ways, some of which work and some of which don't) but even though abortion spares a child the grief of living and the mother the grief of trying to decide what to do with her child, it steals from the child the joy and possibilities of living and it steals from the mother the joy that the child could have been. It also steals from the world someone who could have risen through the ranks and done something wonderful.

When the woman's life is in danger from the pregnancy, then as far as I can tell, we do as much as we can to save both lives, but not one at the cost of the other.

I really think there should be more resources for pregnant women and women with young children, I think that would help a lot if someplace for people in that situation to find help got as big and well-known as Planned Parenthood.

(that was not rude in any way, Finny (you're still Finny, right?) this is wonderful and, uncomfortable though it can be, i'm really enjoying this discussion instead of regretting making it for once rip ^_^)
(yeah i'm still finny!! and yup having a calm polite discussion is a pretty good break from how heated political debates can get omg)

i'm not doubting your source, of course, but i'm a little confused by what you meant when you said that we have different opinions on contraceptives bc of our sources? i know you mentioned that the person you talked to said that the 3% statistic isn't true, but the stuff i mentioned abt contraceptives preventing stds and helping with hormonal problems wasn't a pro-planned parenthood statistic, if that's what you meant? although i'll admit i haven't done a ton of research abt planned parenthood, the stuff i mentioned about other uses for contraceptives are stuff we learnt at school (and the textbook wasn't biased towards either side). unless i'm misinterpreting that?

i see what you mean about everyone suffering, buuttt i do have pretty strong opinions when it comes to rape cases (i know that wasn't in response to me but oh well) i believe that there should be no question about whether the victim has the right to get an abortion. what you said earlier, about sex being 1) a way to be intimate with someone and 2) a way to have children, that obviously doesn't apply to rape, and i see it as basically being forced to have a child by someone else.

although, on that note, what's your opinion about cases where women get pregnant when their partner forces them to have kids? (for example, in an abusive relationship?) personally i believe that the debate over abortion is totally different when it comes to non-consensual anything. i see your point about having to take into account the fetus' life as well, if the mother was consenting to being sexually active. consent for me is really important in this debate because i can't see the morals behind preventing a rape victim from getting an abortion, because to me that seems like saying "a dangerous predator has every right to force women to carry a child to term, raise the child on her own for eighteen years, and deal with the financial, psychological, emotional, etc consequences of that. someone could rape a woman and they could very well get away with it, but she would be forced to deal with the lifelong effects of that at no fault of her own."

so yeah, i think if someone is not at risk of dying (or the child dying) due to health complications, and if she got pregnant consensually, you could debate whether or not she gets to abort the child, and there would be moral arguments for and against abortion here. BUT if it was nonconsensual, i strongly believe that a woman has every right to an abortion. obviously, it's her choice whether she wants to or not, but i believe she deserves that choice, since she didn't get to make that choice when she got impregnated in the first place.

also @ your point about pp carrying out unsafe abortions-- i did a quick google, and did find a few allegations about unsanitary conditions and the like. however, 'poking around to kill the fetus' isn't actually what happens in all cases-- many times the abortion is carried out through a pill, for example. in any case, if the accounts of unsafe conditions are true, then i also believe that having safe, clean clinics is important.

(and again, not directed at me, but i'm giving my two cents here: tbh if the mother wants to have an abortion, but the father wants to keep it, i still think it's the mother's choice. first off, it's not the father who's carrying this child for 9 months. and secondly, in most cases the mother will be responsible for the child. also, especially if the mother is very young, it may hurt her health and the child's health to carry it to term. so yeah, still the choice of whoever's giving birth).
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Last edited by venika; 10-20-2016 at 05:39 PM.
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  #988  
Old 10-20-2016, 06:05 PM
SilverMoon SilverMoon is offline
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I'm biased, perhaps a little more than you are, and I'm steeped in theology, so I keep talking Christian lingo. I'm sorry for not using normal language to try to get my points across!

Thing is, I can't prove that life begins at conception, but whatever the heck an embryo is, it will become a human being if allowed to be born. Does that give it rights? I say yes...

Our whole problem here is that we have to balance the very very real and important rights of the woman with the rights of the human that might come from her.

There's something VERY VERY wrong when a human girl is raped. She should not be forced to have sex, and it isn't good that she might have a child when completely unprepared for it and unready. But the offspring is also hers, and when it is okay to kill something because of who its parents are?

It's true that adoption is not a method that works all the time, or often. It's also true that many of these children will not have the life they deserve. But we don't go around mercy-killing poor people because they don't have the life they deserve. We try to help them.

Most of us humans don't have a life with all the resources we need, and all of us are hurt in some way. None of us have lived a perfect life with a perfect family. I don't think that means we need to die.

I hate that I might be saying "let them suffer but let them live." That sounds heartless to me, but no matter who we are and how we are born, we suffer. That's undeniable. What I'm wishing on the child and the mother is not suffering, but the opportunity to grow past and heal from it.

About the embryo not caring if it dies, a former Planned Parenthood employee told me that she was doing an abortion with x-ray (for the first time.) When the abortion instrument entered the mother's womb, the fetus leapt away from it.

The mother should always have a choice whether or not to bear her child, but here's this situation that might happen that's been bouncing around my head. I'm not trying to preach (anymore lol), I'm just genuinely curious.

So what if there are two very young people who are in love and have sex? The girl gets pregnant, and she's going to abort because she's not ready for a child. The father, however, wants the baby to be born. Is it still the woman's choice?
I have difficulty responding to arguments based on theology and ethics rather than logic without becoming hostile in the process. But I will respond to your last point. ((EDIT: note: I don't mean that theological and moral views are necessarily illogical/bad but I have trouble making sense of things through that lense))

Your very first sentence: So what if there are two very young people who are in love and have sex? Two very young people are most likely too immature to know whether or not they are in love with each other, and teenagers shouldn't think about having sex (biased aroace standpoint sorry). Plus, isn't it you that believes premarital sex is wrong? They couldn't be married, and shouldn't rush into such important life decisions such as love, sex, and childbearing (much less childrearing!!) at such a young age. And if they are so very young, aren't they below the legal age of consent? They are too immature to grasp the concepts of consent and of the possible consequences of intercourse.
For the rest of it-- YES, it is the mother's choice. SHE is the one that has to deal with the difficulties of the pregnancy process, and the risk of birthing a child. The man here has no right to push for the birth of a child that he does not have to endure the pregnancy of when said CARRIER OF THE CHILD will not consent to carrying the pregnancy to term. To say otherwise is to say that the man's opinion outweighs the woman's. Plus, in most teen pregnancy situations neither feel ready for a child, and often the father doesn't HAVE to deal with it, so he DOESN'T. And socially, his life isn't affected. The most he'll get is a "boys will be boys" and a "dude!! you scored!!" And he doesn't have to deal with anything. The woman is FAR, FAR more likely to be ostracized, made fun of, called a slut or a dirty sinner or a disgrace.


ALSO, you have to remember that the progressive stance is pro-CHOICE, not pro-abortion. YOU ((edit: note: General you referring to Christian pro-lifers) are the ones trying to control other people's PERSONAL CHOICES that DONT AFFECT YOU because of abstract, shaky concepts of divine will and your right to impose the resulting morality on others. You are trying to control others, and say that YOUR CHOICE IN THE NAME OF YOUR GOD is more important than THE CHOICE OF THE IMPREGNATED WOMAN. You are trying to say that your opinion is worth more, that you are worth more than others. By your own religion, you are trying to say what is right-- YOU ARE TRYING TO JUDGE AND CONTROL OTHERS, BUT ONLY GOD CAN DO THAT. ONLY GOD CAN JUDGE BY YOUR OWN RELIGIOUS BELIEFS.
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  #989  
Old 10-20-2016, 06:26 PM
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Although I've heard from a former Planned Parenthood employee that abortions at Planned Parenthood are still unsanitary and dangerous, I certainly see your point that outlawing abortions would complicate matters for a lot of people whose lives are already way too complicated.

My personal opinion right now is that instead of focusing on taking down the (admittedly questionable) major abortion company, Planned Parenthood, and outlawing abortion, we who are pro-life (and pro-choice people might agree with this too) should focus on giving pregnant women more resources for self-care and the care of their children. This, as far as I can see, would be a surer way of saving both the life of the mother and the child, which is a good point you made- pro-life strategies these days save a life, but don't make it any easier afterward.

Perhaps abortion should remain legal for now, but someone who is more interested in the lives and welfare of both mother, father, and child should be in charge of it rather than the (probably, from what I've seen) money-driven Planned Parenthood. (Who else offers abortions?)

About people who are trying to get an abortion- rather than wanting to do it, I think most of them see no other way. A speaker I heard once compared the situation of an unplanned pregnancy like standing in a burning building, hundreds of feet above the ground, and compared abortion to jumping out of the window. All society is doing right now is saying to women, "You can jump out the window : )" and not really providing a ladder or any padding at the bottom. Evidence for the fact that most women don't want an abortion is that Planned Parenthood employee also said that one of the most common questions during an abortion is, "Will my baby feel this? Will it hurt them?"

To answer your queries one by one:

Is deciding what someone else can do with their own body an instance in which a person is trying to play at being God?

I don't believe that anyone having an abortion is thinking, "MUAHAHAHA, I WILL DESTROY MY CHILD AND BE GOD >." I don't think anyone in that situation is ever really trying to play God, they're just trying to fix their lives, and who can blame them?

While surgery is another instance in which someone else is doing something to a person's body, it's for the preservation of God's creation.

Abortion, though in rare cases may be the only way to preserve life, is usually done to FIX a life at the cost of another life. A human life is worth more than convenience.

Is God's plan to have a woman carry her rapist's child to term and birth them into what is unlikely to be a safe and happy life?

Rape is a terrible, terrible thing, and to be pregnant out of rape cannot be easy at all. Yet, I've heard stories where someone was raped, birthed a child, and loved the child.

https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion...c48f-399832281

Is God's plan to make a teenage girl impregnated and force her to give birth to that child, which could cause her to get kicked out of her house, be ostracized, and when that teenager is juggling enough already and is unlikely to be able to properly take care of a kid emotionally or financially?

See the story above. That girl was lucky. Most aren't.

But God's plan might be for a teenage girl to be impregnated, ostracized, lose everything, and then find the help, love, and acceptance she needed somewhere she never knew existed, and make a close, extremely important friend she would never have had if she didn't lose everything.

By losing all we have, we gain better than we ever would have chosen for ourselves.

God's plan was not to make people suffer. Satan did that, and God let it happen because a) he created and loved Satan. once upon a time, after all, he was Lucifer, brightest of the angels b) he wanted us to choose to love him, he didn't want puppets, so he gave us free will c) Something even better than the original plan could be brought out of suffering and such situations as these.

I applaud your maturity here. You have a lot of passion about this, and you managed to explain your stance on the issues in a way that didn't hurt me. I hope I didn't get too far into the Christian jargon, and I hope I helped you understand some stuff about why we Catholics believe what we believe.

Eliminating cells that will be human isn't the same as killing a human? Why is that?
I am not knowledgeable about Planned Parenthood and am NOT pro-Planned Parenthood as I would hesitate to be pro-corporation in any instance.

"giving pregnant women more resources for self-care and the care of their children. This, as far as I can see, would be a surer way of saving both the life of the mother and the child, which is a good point you made- pro-life strategies these days save a life, but don't make it any easier afterward. "

I DO agree that if you are going to tell another human being what they can and can't do, this is the least you can do. I can better respect the pro-life stance if such resources would be provided, and two lives would remain.

I think there are independent clinics which perform abortions?? But don't take my word for it.

In your response to my first query, you misunderstand my point. Consciously or not, YOU are the one playing god by putting yourself above a human being and telling them what they can and can't do. You say that your god gave us free will. If we are allowed free will, doesn't that mean we are allowed CHOICE? To me, it seems like christians just say "you have free will and that's okay as long as you only exercise free will in this small, boxed in area that we -- humans who are no better than you in actuality -- have created because since our agenda follows god's you must take us as the voice of god".

With your mother-loves-rapists-baby story, you once again misunderstand my point. I am not pro-abortion: even under the circumstances of rape, abuse, or teen pregnancy, it is the mother's CHOICE, because only she can decide what she can or can't, should or shouldn't do when it comes to herself and her child. Pro-choice is pro free will. If you believe that your god gave us free will, and that free will is not a bad thing, you should not be trying to override someone else's God-given free will in God's name. I won't say it's wrong for a teenage girl to carry a rapist's child to term if that is her decision; however, pro-lifers will say that she is wrong if she decides to abort the baby.

"See the story above. That girl was lucky. Most aren't.

But God's plan might be for a teenage girl to be impregnated, ostracized, lose everything, and then find the help, love, and acceptance she needed somewhere she never knew existed, and make a close, extremely important friend she would never have had if she didn't lose everything.

By losing all we have, we gain better than we ever would have chosen for ourselves. "

I agree with this part, actually, bar the inclusion of "God's plan". Whether or not she would "gain better than she would have chosen for herself" if she carried the baby to term, she retains her RIGHT to CHOOSE. Whether or not you believe something is right, you are not entitled to judge that it is wrong for someone else to make a choice for themselves that doesn't affect you in any way.

I applaud your maturity as well, and while I may lack the composure and politeness of my previous post, I still do not mean to offend you. I respect your right to your own opinion, and while I debate with you, my intention is not to try to force my own beliefs on you. And I do not judge you, for in your religion, only God can do that.
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Old 10-20-2016, 09:25 PM
july3girl july3girl is offline
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guys i wrote a comment before but no one saw it so i'm reposting. sorry i just spent like a while researching.
HERE IT IS:

wait isn't using contraceptives being responsible/accountable? also, i think i made it unclear: plan b is used after sex, but generally before a pregnancy technically begins. basically, when a sperm enters a woman, it can live there for 6 days, and if the woman ovulates (releases an egg) during this time and the sperm meets the egg, the woman will be impregnated. plan b tries to kill the sperm before it comes into contact with the egg.

so again, contraceptives: if used correctly, condoms prevent 98% of pregnancies. female condoms prevent 95% of pregnancies. these are just two barrier methods, but there are many others that don't cause any physical harm (unless your allergic to a material used in the product). i've heard that some hormonal methods have consequences, but there ARE other methods.

also, sort of like what i said before about abortions, people ARE going to have sex. it's a part of being human. personally, i think that as long as both parties are consenting, not underage and are using protection, it's ok.
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